Capehart and Abernathy on the multiple Trump investigations

GEOFF BENNETT: Now, to further discuss how investigations into the former president are affecting the 2024 presidential race and more, we turn to the analysis of Capehart and Abernathy.

That's Jonathan Capehart, associate editor for The Washington Post, and Gary Abernathy, also a Washington Post contributor.

David Brooks is away tonight.

It's great to see you both.

So, the classified documents case against Donald Trump now has a trial date.

As we reported, the federal judge in that case ordered it to start as early as May 20, 2024.

Jonathan, what do you make of this potential scenario where Donald Trump could potentially be the presumptive Republican nominee and he's also facing a criminal trial?

This mid-May date is after most of the primaries, and it's before the nominating conventions.

JONATHAN CAPEHART: Right.

Well, I have baked that in.

I thought from the very beginning that there would be no distinction between Donald Trump's campaign appearances and Donald Trump's going in for his various court appearances for the various trials that he's a part of.

And so all I know is this.

I am glad that there is a date set, that there is a date set before the general election, assuming he is the Republican nominee for president.

But I'm also happy and glad that there is a date set, because, no matter what happens to Donald Trump in terms of the 2024 presidential - - Republican presidential nomination, Donald Trump is now going to be held publicly accountable through a trial for his role, assuming, again, that there is indeed - - well, in the documents case, he will be held accountable for withholding, taking classified documents, including nuclear secrets.

This is very, very serious, and I'm glad he's going to be held accountable for it.

GEOFF BENNETT: Gary, Donald Trump faces as many as six criminal and civil cases in this election cycle.

Doesn't this, in some ways, incentivize his Republican rivals to stay in this race longer than they might be inclined to or could have the support to, because they're waiting for a potential Donald Trump candidacy collapse?

GARY ABERNATHY, The Washington Post: Well, as we have seen so far, every time he's indicted, it just makes him stronger.

So if there are six indictments, how strong is that going to him?

Because it seems to rally the Republicans around him more and more.

And I think his opponents, except for Chris Christie maybe, are not taking the right tack.

They're kind of still defending Trump and complaining about these charges, at the same time that they're trying to run against Trump.

That doesn't make a lot of sense.

But the trial date is an interesting timing.

I think that you're also looking at another indictment possibly on the January 6 issue, which I thought the documents indictment was a mistake, not because he didn't do anything wrong, but because I just think it's going to be bad for the country.

And I think there's obviously, I think, going to be an indictment come on his actions on January 6, which I also think is going to be a mistake, because... GEOFF BENNETT: Really?

Why?

GARY ABERNATHY: Well, because here's the thing, Geoff.

Is it going to be -- it's going to -- I think you don't have to just prove that Donald Trump tried to reverse an election result.

But, in essence, they have got to prove he tried to basically overthrow a duly elected government.

And I think you get into issues of free speech, into just going down a road that I don't think is going to be healthy for the country to have to have this debate while Donald Trump is probably going to be your nominee, your Republican nominee, for president.

GEOFF BENNETT: Jonathan, I suspect you see this matter differently, as we await... JONATHAN CAPEHART: Oh... GEOFF BENNETT: ... a potential indictment from the special counsel on Donald Trump's role in January 6.

JONATHAN CAPEHART: Oh, absolutely.

I disagree wholeheartedly with Gary.

To not hold Donald Trump -- to not indict Donald Trump in the classified documents case or potentially, as we might -- as we will find out next week, in the January 6 investigation of the special counsel is to not hold him accountable.

It is not a mistake to hold the person who was the leader of the country, the occupant of the Oval Office, it is not a mistake to hold him accountable for taking classified documents, and not just one or two.

I saw -- there's a report out there that there are 1,500 pages, some including the most sensitive secrets of this nation, including nuclear secrets.

He must be held accountable for that, and I'm glad he was indicted for that.

And, next week or down the road, we will find out what special counsel Jack Smith is going to do in terms of an indictment of Donald Trump related to January 6.

And if an indictment comes down, it is good for the country, because the country needs to hear this.

The country needs to see this.

And the signal needs to be sent to any Donald Trump wannabes either in this race or in future generations that if you try to overthrow or overturn a free and fair election, you will be held accountable.

It might not be the next day or months down the road, but you will be held accountable in a court of law by a jury of your peers.

GARY ABERNATHY: I think, though, Jonathan and Geoff, it also has the effect of perpetuating the cycle of retribution.

We see that going on right now in Congress.

We see that going on with the Jim Jordan, James Comer Weaponization of Government investigation.

You went after Trump, so we're going to go after Biden.

We're going to go after -- it just -- someone needs to end this.

And, hopefully, as I have argued, it needs to be the voters that end this.

When you can just -- what makes Trump stronger all the time is this notion that it plays into his complaint that there's a deep state conspiracy out to get me.

And this is just going to perpetuate that and reinforce that idea.

GEOFF BENNETT: Well, on that point, the former president seems to be getting some backup from his Republican rivals on the trail.

Here's how a couple of them, at least, responded to the news that Donald Trump received this target letter from the special counsel related to the January 6 investigation.

GOV.

RON DESANTIS (R-FL), Presidential Candidate: I think it was shown how he was in the White House and didn't do anything while things were going on.

He should have come out more forcefully, of course that.

But to try to criminalize that, that's a different issue entirely.

And I think that we want to be in a situation where you don't have one side just constantly trying to put the other side in jail.

MIKE PENCE (R), Presidential Candidate: With regard to the prospect of an indictment, I hope it doesn't come to that.

The -- I'm not convinced that the president acting on the bad advice of a group of crank lawyers that came into the White House in the days before January 6 is actually criminal.

GEOFF BENNETT: Jonathan, taking what the former Vice President Mike Pence, had to say, given that he was targeted by Donald Trump and his supporters on January 6, he, of all of the Republican candidates, would be able to draw the strongest, the biggest contrast on that particular issue.

And yet he chooses not to.

JONATHAN CAPEHART: Yes, and he chooses not to, and it's shameful.

His life was in danger that day; 535 members of Congress, their lives were in danger that day.

The fact that the only person in the Republican race right now is Governor Chris Christie who is willing to say things as the way they are just shows how far the Republican Party has fallen.

I'm old enough to remember Donald Trump on the campaign trail in 2016 saying it would be a mistake for the American people to vote for someone who's under a federal investigation.

Donald Trump now has two criminal indictments, maybe others coming down the road, and yet he's got a party that is circling the wagons around him, including a guy whose own life was threatened by it.

It's unbelievably shameful, unbelievably shameful.

And one thing about what Gary said about, let's end this cycle of retribution, the retribution started with Donald Trump.

And ending the cycle would be surrender.

It would be surrender to authoritarian forces trying to take over our democracy.

GARY ABERNATHY: Well, let me say what Donald Trump did on January 6 -- and I have said everything he did after losing that election to deny losing that election has been bad for this country and bad for democracy.

But being bad for democracy, bad for the country is not the same as being criminal.

And I think there's just -- it's bad for this country to try to -- when you're the Biden DOJ, going after your primary political opponent has a very bad look to it.

GEOFF BENNETT: We have a couple of minutes left.

And I want to raise the trip that the vice president, Kamala Harris, made to Florida today.

It was a last-minute trip, and she was tackling changes to the state's education standards that appear to play down the horrors of slavery.

The Florida Board of Education voted this week to approve revised Black history curriculum that includes instruction how slaves actually benefited from slavery because they learned some skills.

I see you shaking your head.

GARY ABERNATHY: Yes.

Yes, it's ridiculous.

I don't know what the fear is of teaching Black history, of teaching the horrors of slavery, of teaching what a horrible chapter in our history was.

There's nothing to be afraid of with that teaching.

It's -- you know what?

We have downplayed it too much in the past.

And it's absolutely -- I'm going to agree with Kamala Harris, in a rare instance, this time on what she's saying.

And I have never understood what DeSantis' problem is or anyone else with teaching accurate history about the horrors of slavery in this country.

GEOFF BENNETT: Jonathan, how do you see it?

And tell me more about the vice president's role in tackling cultural issues, to include this, abortion and so on.

JONATHAN CAPEHART: Wow.

Well, Gary and I are in 100 percent alignment on this.

(LAUGHTER) JONATHAN CAPEHART: Why are we afraid to talk about the nuances and complexities of our history, of American history, of Black history?

The vice president going down to Florida, going right into the heart of the matter to talk about this is a great thing, because she is uniquely qualified to talk about this, as the first Black woman, the first South Asian American to hold the office of vice president.

When she speaks about issues of race, when she speaks about issues of culture, when she speaks about issues of choice, she is speaking from the heart.

And that is the most genuine she can be.

And it is an asset to the Biden/Harris ticket as they go into a presidential election in '24 where those issues are going to be paramount.

GEOFF BENNETT: Jonathan Capehart and Gary Abernathy, quite a conversation on this Friday evening.

Thank you both.

Have a good one.

GARY ABERNATHY: Thank you.

(LAUGHTER) JONATHAN CAPEHART: Thanks, Geoff.